Over the past few months, I’ve read a few blog posts about a potential conflict between the licensing of the WordPress blogging software and the Thesis Theme for WordPress. I just finished reading another such article, and it has me wondering, again, what I should do.
I’d really like to hear your thoughts on this situation.
In a nutshell:
- WordPress is made available under General Public License (GPL) terms. That means, in part, that its source code is available for free, and, apparently, that derivative works of WordPress should also make their source code available for free.
- WordPress Themes, which are software “programs” that determine the appearance and user interface of a WordPress blog, are considered by the WordPress developers to be derivative works. This implies, in their interpretation of the GPL terms, that such themes are to be offered with the source code available to the public for free.
- The Thesis Theme, which I have been using for over a year (I was the first person to buy Thesis), is not available for free. You can only obtain its source code and interfacing through a license, which currently costs $87 for a personal license (one site) and $164 for a developer’s license (multiple sites). [I own the developers license.] In my view, it is well worth the money!
- Hence, there is a dispute between the developers of WordPress and the developers of Thesis.
I find myself in a quandary over this. First of all, I like the developer of the Thesis Theme, Chris Pearson, a lot. I consider him a good friend. And, I admire him and his work. Although he graduated from my alma-mater (Georgia Tech) with a mechanical engineering degree, he soon after that decided that his real passion was design. He went after that passion “whole hog” (as my dad would say), and has become a top (if not The Top) WordPress theme designer in the world. I think he has the right to make good money for his great work. I admire him for following his passion.
On the other hand, I am a strong supporter of open-source software, and I do not want to personally act in a way that violates its terms of use.
Anyway, I can see both sides of the argument. And, partly because of my friendship with Chris, it’s hard for me to make a decision in an unbiased way. I am tempted to just say “Chris deserves to keep going the way he is going, because he’s doing good work.” It’s almost like the WordPress developers are providing a free car that has everything but the transmission, and then telling everybody that people who develop and provide transmissions must do so for free. The WordPress framework itself is useless without a theme to show its data to people. To me, that makes themes something more than “derivative works,” and, as such, it doesn’t “seem right” (to me) to leash theme developers into providing their code for free. Update: Matt Mullenweg corrects my poor “car analogy” in the comments below.
I’d like to hear your thoughts. I know most of you aren’t into “this sort of thing,” but that doesn’t keep you from having an opinion. I do know that several of you, though, are into this sort of thing, and you can probably discuss it more intelligently than most of us can. Hence, I look forward to your comments.
Update: I’ve written more about this here, including an announcement that Thesis is now (effective 2010 July 22) Split GPL licensed.
Now I’m just jumping into this whole wordpress / thesis debacle. I’m not 100% on the licenses and history and stuff, but from what I understand, per the GPL, you can resell the product ONLY if you provide the source at no extra cost and release it with the same license. Technically, you could host the code and files of WordPress on your site, and charge a fee for providing a copy, as long as you provide the source files and the same license, meaning they can then go and sell the same product (or updated product) at whatever cost they want. Its the same thing with the OS Ubuntu- although free, some company’s package it, burn it, and sell it for small fees (I’ve seen like 99 cents per copy) but you can get the exact same thing from the Ubuntu site free.
I believe the problem Matt has with Thesis is how Chris had built his product onto a GPL licensed product, using his hooks / code / backend.etc, but then did not do the same with his product creating a sort of conflict of interest. Without WordPress, Thesis obviously wouldn’t work. Chris could still sell his product for whatever price he wanted with a GPL license, it’s just the product he sells will have that same license and can be then resold. So I don’t think Matt has a problem with paid themes or anything, there are loads of WordPress themes for sale, it all comes back to licensing.
The dispute was pretty hot and heavy over in the comments section of this blog today: http://pomomusings.com/2009/06/04/switch-wordpress-blog/ , with founder Matt having not so hot things to say about Thesis.
I won’t begin to take sides in the whole argument. Like you, I can see both sides of the argument. I think the issue is between Matt and Chris and because both have dedicated followers, the issue seems to explode quite often.
That being said, I will go on record saying I do use and love the Thesis theme
Hi Matt,
Thanks for stopping by and offering up some great insights, along with details on why the controversy exists. I think you have expressed the situation very well.
One thing that goes in the favor of Thesis, in my view, is that so much of Chris’ code is not derivative code from WordPress … it is logic code that ties together elements of a css design. So, while Chris’ work might be considered derivative to some degree, it is certainly not entirely derivative. I think there are legal questions about whether the GPL derivative clause even applies at all in the case of themes, and it likely will take a legal ruling to sort it out completely.
Anyway, thanks again for offering your insights and providing additional detail.
I’ve said this in the other post, but no one has ever suggested that themes or plugins are necessarily derivative works. However the GPL has a viral aspect that says programs which link its code or use core functions (like every theme and most plugins do) and are distributed must be distributed in a way that allows the same freedoms that WordPress does. Here’s a relevant FAQ on the FSF site.
It has nothing to do with price. Thousands of people have worked together over the years to build software that stood for something. A more apt analogy than a car without a transmission would be that WordPress is like a country, and the GPL is its Bill of Rights. We ask people who live and work inside our country to respect certain rights we deem inalienable. We’re not forcing this on everybody — you don’t have to live or work in our country in fact there are thousands of others with no such concerns or rules. There are plenty of non-GPL blogging systems that you can write themes for. You may argue that they aren’t as nice to work with or have as many users, and I would respond that if WordPress wasn’t GPL it wouldn’t be as nice or have as many users either.
Matt,
It’s very gracious of you to stop by and post this. I saw a tweet the other day from @mattcutts in which he said your respectful way of talking and presenting yourself at WordCamp really impressed him. You’ve gotten a reputation for having a very cool head, a logical thought process, and an openness to other views.
Now, back to the point. You raise a point I was not aware of. Seems like every time I see a discussion on this topic, there is a point raised that is new to me. Your point is somewhat similar, though, to one I have seen you make elsewhere: this has more to do with user rights than with price (in fact, it has nothing to do with price).
So now I am back to where I really have to think about this again.
Again, thank you for your comments, Matt. Take care.
I doubt that this discusion is just related to Thesis theme. There are many premium themes on the net that are used with WordPress and if it comes push to shove and Thesis has to withdraw it’s price tag, then many will have to follow as well.
Free and Premium themes using WordPress are all great and if more users move over to WordPress from using other blogging platforms/html only sites/etc, then it can only benefit WordPress. If WordPress is going to be angry with certain users/developers, then it popularity will surely drop. Without us WordPress users, WordPress will become a thing of the past and will die like other sites do, which is not what I or others would like to see.
There certainly are other premium themes and I don’t know why Thesis has been singled out by WordPress, if it has. It does appear to have been singled out, but I am only an observer, and not involved in a heavy way in these sorts of discussions. I do wish it would go ahead and get settled, though.
Apparently, unlike the vast majority of people expounding about the issue of GPL themes, I’m the only person noting that this discussion of derivative code is *decades* old.
Literally.
And it’s been solved. Repeatedly.
For example, bison’s license was modified specifically to allow including derived code in fully proprietary products.
Another example: the conflict over libc. Linux too, the kernel is GPL, rendering everything running on linux derivative in some respect.
These were all handled appropriately to 1. keep the GPL where it does most good, 2. allow for a software ecosystem to evolve. We can’t all be WordPress core developers. Or paid linux kernel developers.
Frankly, I’m tired of reading about it, and suggest all further discussion be limited to people who have actually discussed the issue with RMS personally.
Or at least people who have heard of RMS…
Dave, I’ve heard of it for years, too. The discussions will stay around as long as it is an issue in peoples’ minds.
For free software, but not free speech, eh?
Kidding … I know it gets old, especially when people take the issue on with a religious fervor instead of an open mind … that is probably the part that is getting old to you (it sure is to me).
My understanding of the gpl is as follows
1 he can sell thesis so long as it is understood you are buying a gpl product
2. You are legally entitled to also sell thesis under the same licencing.
So anyone can sell it. There is no ownership attached to the product. Ethics would say you should add value to it before reselling it. Giving it away though is your own personal decision
This is something individuals creating themes under wordpress gpl must know and accept before deciding on a commercial venture
James — Thesis is not licensed as a GPL product, which is what “all the fuss is about.”
I assume that one day this matter will put to bed by a lawsuit. Personally I have lost interest in trying to keep up with this sort of thing, because there is so much disinformation and opinions on it floating around the web.